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jwgilmore
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Posted - Apr 18 2007 :  10:45:13 AM  Link directly to this topic  Show Profile  Visit jwgilmore's Homepage  Send jwgilmore a Private Message  Reply with Quote
OK it's getting kinda quiet in here the past few days, so here's another topic to stir...

Chuck has played a variety of horns over the years. I believe he currently plays the Calicchio, but I've never been able to find out anything about his mouthpieces. Maybe that's a guarded secret among players kinda like a good fishing hole for fishermen... I dunno.

Does anyone know what brand and size flugelhorn mouthpiece Chuck uses?

Also, how about your luck with various brands/sizes? I use a Yamaha 13F4, but find it's a little difficult in the high ranges.

John W. Gilmore
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www.modulationband.com

'Music is one of God's greatest gifts.' - Chuck Mangione
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Leatherlips
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Posted - Apr 18 2007 :  10:54:27 AM  Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Visit Leatherlips's Homepage  Send Leatherlips a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't know what size he plays, but I heard in the 70s and 80s that he actually used a cornet mouthpiece with his flugelhorn. On the Disguise album, I think the mouthpiece in that picture is a Giardinelli. I'll have to look at it when I get home.

"When music is honest and full of love, labels aren't important, and people listen with an open mind"
-Chuck Mangione
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Con Vito
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Posted - Apr 18 2007 :  9:58:06 PM  Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Visit Con Vito's Homepage  Send Con Vito a Private Message  Reply with Quote
well i have no idea wat he plays. but i play on a bach 5b with my trumpet and a 7c with my flugel.

"We're gonna conclude the first half of this basketball game..." Check out my music and voice samples at www.myspace.com/danconlin
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satchmo67
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Posted - Apr 19 2007 :  12:05:08 AM  Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Visit satchmo67's Homepage  Send satchmo67 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
On the Main Squeeze LP cover I can see the mouthpiece quite clearly. It is a Giardinelli with a gold rim. Can't read the size of the mouthpiece but can see:
  • the cup appears to be quite deep;
  • the shanks fits well into the mouthpipe / tuning slide like my Giardinelli mouthpiece fits into a Yamaha flugel
.... both of which make me think that it is a flugel mouthpiece and not a cornet mouthpiece.

The shank appears the same on LP covers of Love Notes, Disguise and Feels So Good, although only Main Squeeze shows some of the cup.
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jimmyjazz
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Posted - Apr 19 2007 :  9:25:11 PM  Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Visit jimmyjazz's Homepage  Send jimmyjazz a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Chuck indeed plays a Giardenelli -custom mouthpiece (since the early 70's) It has a rather small diameter ( comparable to a giardenelli 12). Deep V cup..
CON VITO--I used Bach 3c (and 3fl) flugel mp's for years..I never liked the flugel mp's...The inner cup feels like you "fall off a cliff!" Have you ever tried anything different? I notice you use 2 different diameters between your trumpet and flugel-though some players do this, it is not something I would recommend. Just a thought..

James Ingenito
www.jamesingenito.com

Edited by - jimmyjazz on Apr 19 2007 9:26:39 PM
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jwgilmore
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Posted - Apr 20 2007 :  10:42:13 AM  Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Visit jwgilmore's Homepage  Send jwgilmore a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Jimmy... I use a Shilke 12A4A on trumpet. When I was shopping for an mp for the eBay flugel (YFH-631), Jim Donaldson recommended the Yamaha 13F4... he said the Yamaha is one number higher than the Shilke, so that's the comparable model for flugel. Does that sound right to you? Any recommendations? It's a much deeper cup than the Shilke.

John W. Gilmore
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www.modulationband.com

'Music is one of God's greatest gifts.' - Chuck Mangione
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jimmyjazz
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Posted - Apr 20 2007 :  2:00:28 PM  Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Visit jimmyjazz's Homepage  Send jimmyjazz a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi John...The one thing I have learned over the years is that comparing two mp's is a difficult and personal thing. Even if the yamaha 13 and the schilke 12 were measured and came out identical, it still may not "feel" that way to you. I never really liked the yamaha flugel cups-that's me...You might want to try a giardenelli (10or12 fl) as well. Me advice is to try them out (NEW schilke flugel pieces are custom order I believe) and see whcih you like and which fits with your trumpet piece so your embochoure doesn't "freak out!" Keep me posted...

Quote quote:
Originally posted by jwgilmore

Jimmy... I use a Shilke 12A4A on trumpet. When I was shopping for an mp for the eBay flugel (YFH-631), Jim Donaldson recommended the Yamaha 13F4... he said the Yamaha is one number higher than the Shilke, so that's the comparable model for flugel. Does that sound right to you? Any recommendations? It's a much deeper cup than the Shilke.


James Ingenito
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jwgilmore
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Posted - Apr 21 2007 :  10:44:22 AM  Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Visit jwgilmore's Homepage  Send jwgilmore a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great advice Jimmy... I'll check it out. What is it that you don't like about the Yamaha flugel mp cups? Just curious. I find that notes above high A are hard to 'find' and then the same if I quickly drop down below the low C. Can you elaborate?

John W. Gilmore
www.gilmoremarketing.com
www.modulationband.com

'Music is one of God's greatest gifts.' - Chuck Mangione
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jimmyjazz
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Posted - Apr 21 2007 :  11:42:42 AM  Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Visit jimmyjazz's Homepage  Send jimmyjazz a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi John...Keep in mind that a lot of what I am going to say has alot to do with personal preference and "feeling" as no 2 embochoures are alike.
The Yamaha cups (as well as bach) rely on more of a C cup design than a V cup. To me, the inner bite "falls" off and doesn't support you in the upper register. Many trumpet -when trying flugel pieces out-go for the "darkest" mp for their horn, but forget about being able to play in all registars.. To me, bach/yamaha cups (except maybe the bobby shew piece which is really Joe Marcinkiwiecz's design)don't offer the feel and roundness I like for jazz-once again, personal preference. Now, I also play alot of flugelhorn. I did a jazz gig last night out on the North fork (wine country) of Long Island and played about 94% of flugel with some trumpet thrown in! If I just played occasional flugel, I might not be so picky. Check out Bob Reeve's, Marcinkiweicz, even Dennis Wick, and Stork for flugel pieces. What kind of music do you play mostly?




James Ingenito
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jwgilmore
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Posted - Apr 21 2007 :  8:43:31 PM  Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Visit jwgilmore's Homepage  Send jwgilmore a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks Jimmy... great feedback. I play in our church praise band every Sunday... a lot of Lakewood and Hillsong music. It's about 50/50 trumpet/flugel... trumpet for the faster upbeat tunes and flugel for the slower stuff. I'm doing more solo work there though since I got the flugel about 7 months ago...everyone loves it and it's been well received.

The 13F4 works great for the lower and mid-range, but I find myself clawing to stay high when I go high, whereas the Schilke 12A4A just belts it out in the same range on trumpet with no problem. Trying to find something of comparable feel that helps out on flugel.

Chuck just makes it sound so easy! So I guess that was the original reason for the topic... trying to find out if there are any secrets to the best mp to get up there, stay there, then jump down to the basement when it feels good to drop.

I bought the flugel from the lead trumpet player for the Houston Grand Opera. He had 2-3 trumpets and another flugel. He had several mouthpieces, but didn't sell one with the horn. The local music store was going out of business and liquidating their inventory, so I bought the only flugel mp they had in stock... a generic no-name trade-in mp that came with a Blessing flugel... I was desperate because I wanted to play the following Sunday! Anyway, I had no idea what to buy, and the 13F4 was a recommended comparable mp to the Shilke 12A4A, so I got it about a month later.

Thanks for all your insight... you've been most helpful. So you're saying the V-cup offers more support in the higher registers?

Anyone else with ideas, I'd love to hear as well!

John W. Gilmore
www.gilmoremarketing.com
www.modulationband.com

'Music is one of God's greatest gifts.' - Chuck Mangione
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Leatherlips
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Posted - Apr 21 2007 :  9:26:29 PM  Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Visit Leatherlips's Homepage  Send Leatherlips a Private Message  Reply with Quote
On trumpet, I play a Bach 3C. Once in a while I'll play a Schilke 14a4a when I know I need to play a lot in the upper register. My flugel mouthpiece is a Bach 5CFL. I have always liked it and I can hit just about any note I need to on it. It's a fairly deep mouthpiece with what I guess may be a v style cup.

Maynard Ferguson always played a v cup. It supposedly helps to channel the air stream better through the horn thereby facilitating the upper register.

The best thing to do is find a music store near you and try out some different mouthpieces. There are also a few online sites that will let you borrow a few mouthpieces at a time with a small charge and restocking fee.

"When music is honest and full of love, labels aren't important, and people listen with an open mind"
-Chuck Mangione
Check my profile to find out how to enter the hidden VIP Lounge of the Mangione Magic Forum.
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jimmyjazz
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Posted - Apr 22 2007 :  10:31:48 AM  Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Visit jimmyjazz's Homepage  Send jimmyjazz a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Actually, the bach flugel pieces are not true V style cups. Check out a giardenelli cup against a bach and you will see. I have never been good at switching mouthpiece diameters between horns.
As for secrets, I think the only way to be better on flugel is to practice it more often-as opposed to many players practicing their trumpet and then just piking up the fluge; to play a ballad or something!.Practice long tones, scales (with jazz articulations as well) and lip slurs. The flugel is a different animal than the trumpet. Alot also has to do with the bore size of your flugelhorn.

James Ingenito
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jwgilmore
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Posted - Apr 22 2007 :  12:40:31 PM  Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Visit jwgilmore's Homepage  Send jwgilmore a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks guys... in terms of practice, I practice the flugel 2-to-1 over the trumpet just cuz I love the way it plays. I have the YFH-631 rose brass, which is the .433 bore.

I'll check out the Giardinelli. Two last questions...

Giardinelli has no product specs for each mp on their website like Bach and Yamaha offer. What's the difference between the 10FL and 12FL?

I'm assuming either will fit the YFH-631?

John W. Gilmore
www.gilmoremarketing.com
www.modulationband.com

'Music is one of God's greatest gifts.' - Chuck Mangione
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jimmyjazz
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Posted - Apr 22 2007 :  9:08:23 PM  Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Visit jimmyjazz's Homepage  Send jimmyjazz a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The 12 is smaller in diameter than the 10..Both DO fit the yamaha (same horn I use by the way!)


Quote quote:
Originally posted by jwgilmore

Thanks guys... in terms of practice, I practice the flugel 2-to-1 over the trumpet just cuz I love the way it plays. I have the YFH-631 rose brass, which is the .433 bore.

I'll check out the Giardinelli. Two last questions...

Giardinelli has no product specs for each mp on their website like Bach and Yamaha offer. What's the difference between the 10FL and 12FL?

I'm assuming either will fit the YFH-631?


James Ingenito
www.jamesingenito.com
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jwgilmore
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Posted - Apr 26 2007 :  3:16:14 PM  Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Visit jwgilmore's Homepage  Send jwgilmore a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Jimmy... my 12FL just arrived and I easily nailed the high D on FSG... then switched back to the Yamaha 13F4 and once again it was evasive and hard to find.

Thanks so much for your advice!

John W. Gilmore
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www.modulationband.com

'Music is one of God's greatest gifts.' - Chuck Mangione
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jimmyjazz
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Posted - Apr 26 2007 :  8:17:24 PM  Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Visit jimmyjazz's Homepage  Send jimmyjazz a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Practice with it-long tones (not just high stuff) and really get a feel for the piece.

Quote quote:
Originally posted by jwgilmore

Jimmy... my 12FL just arrived and I easily nailed the high D on FSG... then switched back to the Yamaha 13F4 and once again it was evasive and hard to find.

Thanks so much for your advice!


James Ingenito
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jwgilmore
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Posted - Jun 04 2007 :  4:24:58 PM  Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Visit jwgilmore's Homepage  Send jwgilmore a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Jimmy - Now that I've had it several weeks, just wanted to give you a quick update on the new Giardinelli 12FL mouthpiece... LOVE it!

Now I understand what you mean about 'falling off the cliff' with the Yamaha and others... the 'bite' on this Giardinelli DOES give you much more control, kinda like handling a car on a winding mountain road!

And the transition back and forth to the Schilke 12A4A on the trumpet has been fine.

Thanks so much for the recommendation... it's exactly what I needed!!

John W. Gilmore
www.gilmoremarketing.com
www.modulationband.com

'Music is one of God's greatest gifts.' - Chuck Mangione

Edited by - jwgilmore on Jun 04 2007 4:25:31 PM
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jimmyjazz
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Posted - Jun 04 2007 :  8:05:37 PM  Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Visit jimmyjazz's Homepage  Send jimmyjazz a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Glad it is working out ...Keep playing!!!!!!!!!

James Ingenito
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drainman
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Posted - Aug 05 2009 :  10:17:07 PM  Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Send drainman a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I talked to Chuck 2 years ago and I asked him that same question. He said" The same one I started with and always have used!"
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jwgilmore
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Posted - Aug 06 2009 :  12:44:53 AM  Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Visit jwgilmore's Homepage  Send jwgilmore a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great answer! LOL

John W. Gilmore
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'Music is one of God's greatest gifts.' - Chuck Mangione
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jwgilmore
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Posted - Aug 06 2009 :  12:45:53 AM  Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Visit jwgilmore's Homepage  Send jwgilmore a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And welcome to the Forum drainman! If you're any kind of Chuck fan, you'll love this place. Visit often!

John W. Gilmore
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www.modulationband.com

'Music is one of God's greatest gifts.' - Chuck Mangione
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VinylGuy69
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Posted - Aug 06 2009 :  2:17:08 PM  Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Visit VinylGuy69's Homepage  Send VinylGuy69 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
All you horn players need to get out more~

Jazz Drummer/Vibraphonist/Composer/Producer

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